Should the Cavs inquire about LeBron James returning to Cleveland to chase a championship? Wine and Gold Talk podcast
CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, host Ethan Sands and columnist Jimmy Watkins delve into the rumors surrounding LeBron James’ potential return to the Cleveland Cavaliers and explore various trade scenarios.
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What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, you know him, you love him, but it’s not who you think it is. It’s the man, the myth, the legend, Watkins, cleveland.com’s columnist, and he’s coming to me with all of the preparations for 4th of July. Jimmy, what you got planned?
So I’ve been going the same Fourth of July cookout since I was 11 or something. My friend’s parents were, I don’t remember how it started. think it was the year, maybe the year they built a deck in their backyard. They always had a pool. They had the coolest house, the coolest amenities. They had a trampoline too, grown up. So we naturally gathered there all the time. And so it became a tradition and we’ve added things on the tradition. do a corn.
Cornhole tournament every year, a Kanjan tournament every year with partners drawn at random out of a hat. I have finished runner-up in both tournaments in recent years. We are keep bumping our heads on this glass ceiling. There’s a little 22 Celtics in this franchise. Just can’t seem to get over the hump, but confident that this year, this year could be the year.
just manifesting that my partner’s having a, whoever they may be, having a good pregame meal tonight and maybe get a good breakfast in them tomorrow morning. Because it’s an important day. It’s an important day beyond the history and all that. It’s cornhole and can jam tournament day. So that’s where my mind is.
Matt had a lot of questions for us. wanted to read those off. Let’s start at the very top. Jimmy, the rumors of LeBron James coming back to Cleveland. What do you think? Should they trade away some key pieces to get him to come back? Should they wait for him to potentially be in a buyout, even though he just signed a new contract or signed into his player option? What do you think about the situation surrounding LeBron James as a
Jimmy Watkins (03:58.016)
So I do think that this is, this is not your typical LeBron power play with his franchise. He, for, I don’t remember what it is, like seven or eight contracts in a row. LeBron has done this dance where he opts out of his contract. Then does the, I don’t know, if you don’t push all your chips in for a championship, I might have to go looking somewhere else. And then he signs it. The teams always appease him because he’s freaking LeBron.
This time though, I the Lakers pushed back a little bit. think he’s mad about it. And I think that he’s, how likely is it that he moves teams? I don’t know. Cause this time he opted in. So he is under contract with the Lakers and they don’t like it would, think if he had his druthers and the Lakers don’t trade in his picks, by the way, I think there is an overlap middle ground here where the Lakers do what’s best for Luca and do what’s best for LeBron and you know, start moving some picks around.
some pieces on their team to improve the roster because as it stands, their roster is fine. You know, maybe a playoff, maybe win a playoff series level. Maybe that’s just not for the Luke and LeBron. They always have a puncher’s chance in any series that they’re in because they have those two guys, but that needs to be upgraded to be championship caliber. Obviously Luca wants to win championships as soon as possible too. So there’s middle ground there, but it does seem like.
Jimmy Watkins (06:25.25)
this is different. So I think we have a I say all that to say, I think we got a live one here. I do think it’s possible that this this marriage could go south enough where LeBron tries to force a trade or the Lakers are open to moving him something like that. Now that being said, it’s very complicated for the caps to make this move. They would have to shed several large salaries. I mean, unless you’re doing some crazy gymnastics with
We’re talking five, six, seven teams. You’re probably going to have to lose one of the core four, if not multiple pieces of the core four. My personal opinion is anything that anybody not named Donovan Mitchell or Evan Mobley is fair game in the LeBron trade because I do think he raises your ceiling in a major way. The Cavs are uniquely positioned to load manage him in the regular season. know they have.
regular season chops, Donovan and Evan can handle that. Whatever pieces would be left on their team after the trade would handle that, would be able to handle that. there, but there is, there’s a weird rub here that has surfaced the last couple of years that the Cavs would need to address if they were to acquire the run. Since they’ve had this new era, good team.
the best team that they’ve had, not LeBron since the Mark Price days. There’s been this sentiment of, even if you wanted to come back, would the Cavs even want him? And the Cavs even started saying things publicly last year, like, we’re trying to carve our own identity out without LeBron now. Of course, he’s done so much for this franchise, but we want to make our own way. And to that, I would say, you just need to swallow some pride.
and not care how you can’t, like not care so much about how your legacy is defined. Make sure it includes a championship. That’s, that’s what I would say. And I think it’s pretty clear to me that a Cavs team featuring LeBron, James Donovan, Mitchell and Evan Mobley, if it also features Darius Garland and or Jared Allen, I don’t think it could feature all five of those guys.
Jimmy Watkins (08:47.33)
I haven’t done all of the salary cap mechanisms on that, but I don’t think you would be able to keep all five of those guys. And I’m not sure you’d be able to either of Jarrett or Darius. It’s tricky. That being said, LeBron is, having LeBron is better than not having LeBron for the calves. And I think if he becomes available, they should absolutely go for it. It would be such a cool way for him to circle back
his career and it would be, there would be crazy buzz around this team. And like, LeBron still an all NBA player. You have an all NBA wing. He would be immediately one of the best players in the East. Still today, LeBron is still like a top 10 ish player in the league. And if you particularly the way that like,
The way that he’s, it’s been so impressive the way he’s played with the Lakers last year. Last year when, when Luke came back, he was really impressive on defense. The effort he was expending on defense was really impressive because he kind of had to because the Lakers didn’t have a lot of good defensive pieces. but it’s been impressive what he’s been able to do statistically, but it’s also been impressive. The wind he still has the endurance, like his body’s still holding up pretty well in some of these long grueling regular seasons.
The Cavs will be able to mitigate the load that he has to carry in a major way. mean, Donovan’s a superstar in his prime, who frankly probably isn’t trying to surrender a ton of the offensive responsibility at this point in his career. Evan Mobley is an ascendant star who the Cavs are actively trying to get more involved in the offense every season
I think it’s kind of a perfect setup and it would be, it would be emotionally, it would be hard. From a locker room perspective, it would be hard. And when LeBron shows up, because he’s LeBron, because he’s, he’s, he’s just so famous. He’s so, he’s one of these been famous since like 2002. And those people, I had this theory where like,
Jimmy Watkins (11:12.066)
You can only be so famous after the year like 2016, 17 or whatever because society has become so secularized and no one watches the same shows or listens to the same music. It’s all direct to consumer. You can make your own playlists and stuff like that. LeBron’s part of the monoculture. He’s one of the few monoliths left, one of the most famous people in the world. And the whole Cleveland Cavaliers world would revolve around LeBron again. That would be hard.
for certain members of the organization to digest, but it’s the best chance they have to win, in my opinion. So I say go get them. I’m sorry, that was long.
Ethan Sands (11:49.183)
No, that was great. I appreciate the in-depthness and it gave me some time to do my own research on the back end and trying to give you some more nuance when it comes to the trade conversations that are possible for LeBron James. There are multiple different insiders and decision makers that are trying to discuss what is the likelihood of LeBron James being traded back to Cleveland to win a championship, to chase a championship.
as one of the destinations. obviously the other destination that has been brought up is the New York Knicks, but obviously with Cleveland being who brought him into the team that brought LeBron into the league, being the kid from Akron, a lot of people want to see if it is possible. So one of the options that is a little bit less constructed right now is a deal that would consist of Darius Garland, Jared Allen, and Max Struce.
And of course, as you mentioned, it would have to be a three, four, maybe even five team deal. And then there is a more in depth breakdown by this guy. don’t know if you know who he is, Jimmy, but his name is Eric Proctor. Hold on. Sorry, Eric Pincus. And he’s an NBA insider and he went in depth on this trade. So I’m going to try and do my best to break it down how he has it written out. The Cleveland Cavaliers.
would receive LeBron James, Shaq Milton, Walker Kessler, Jaden Springer, the 2027 first round pick from the Jazz, 2029 first round pick from the Jazz, $16.47 million trade exception because they would be getting off of Deandre Hunter’s contract, and Ronnie James. The Lakers would be getting Deandre Hunter from the Cavs, Jordan Clarkson, KJ Martin, and another player.
from the jazz and the Lakers would also be getting in this deal, Jared.
Jimmy Watkins (13:45.39)
This I think this by the way, I just want to say a few of these a few of these pieces have moved since Eric put this trade together. So like Jordan Clarkson is on the next now wouldn’t be in trade. But can we not get caught up in that like ancillary pieces ancillary pieces salary filler. Continue with them.
Ethan Sands (13:58.687)
But also the other thing is I don’t know if all of these trades that have been proposed by Shams on Twitter for ex-formally trader have officially gone through right so potentially they could end up being signing trades or anything just just to throw a hypothetical out there
Jimmy Watkins (14:18.167)
I think Clarkson was a free agent. I think it was a free agent ad. But again, salary filler. Salary filler.
Ethan Sands (14:20.639)
Yes, you’re right about Clarkson. Right. You’re right about Clarkson. So let’s just get back to would you do this trade? And I’m going to keep going with getting into the Jazz now. The Jazz would do a whole bunch, would land Jock Landale from the Rockets and Darius Garlett from the Cavs. And the Rockets would receive the 2030 LA Clippers second round pick via the Jazz and
Again, this is another player who has now been acquired. Dorian Finney Smith from the Lakers via sign in trade. So it’s interesting to see what would be the Cavs roster at this point if they were to go through this trade, right? No Darius Garland, no Jared Allen, no Deandre Hunter. You then have a potential starting lineup of Donovan Mitchell, Max Struse, LeBron James, Evan Mobley.
and Walker Kessler with shake Milton, Jayden Springer, Jayden Springer, and Ronnie James coming off the bench alongside other players that you still have on the roster. Jimmy, as crazy as this trade sounds and as a hypothetical as it is now, as you mentioned with all of the different moves that have already been made, would you make this trade? Would you give up to key members of the core four to get LeBron?
Jimmy Watkins (15:48.922)
Absolutely. Absolutely, because the court court floor has shown me that they have a second round ceiling. I don’t know that’s gonna be the case forever, but I know that LeBron is a playoff ceiling razor. And here’s the other part of this, is that if you if you trade for LeBron, you get them for one, two years, three, if we’re really stretching it, and then you know what happens at the end of that? Boom, $50 million off your cap. Now your second April problems aren’t as big anymore.
And it’s like as currently constructed, the calves are gonna, I don’t know what exactly, like Donovan’s next extension is gonna be massive. Evan Mobley’s contract does it ages massive. Darius Garland’s next extension, or next contract, whether he signs it here or somewhere else, it’s gonna be huge. When Jared Allen’s next contract is still affordable, it’s a good contract, but it’s 30 million a year instead of 20 million a year. So like,
The rubber is going to meet the road at some point anyways. So you, I just think that it’s, you’re killing two birds with one stone. think you’re increasing your championship ceiling now. Obviously you have to be careful with LeBron because he’s old and fragile at this point. Even, mean, he’s still one of the more durable guys in the league, but he has had more minor injuries, minor plus, I guess you could say.
injuries in recent years, but I do think he raises your championship ceiling and then down the road, he gives you flexibility. So that’s, that’s a really, I don’t think there is another move in existence. At least not one I can think of off the top of my head that accomplishes both of those ends for the caps increases your championship probability now and gives you some wiggle room on the backend two, three years from now.
when your roster is going to get crazy expensive anyways. Again, there’s a lot of the Cavs are a private organization. They’re trying to create their own identity without LeBron. I respect that. I think it’s a worthy cause. If he’s on the market, you have to call. You have to.
Ethan Sands (18:02.823)
And I think it’s interesting, right? Because we talk about whether or not this is feasible, whether or not this is an option, whether or not the Cavs are going to put their name in the hat for LeBron James if he is unsatisfied or dissatisfied with his situation in LA. Or if he simply believes that the Lakers are not going to be able to win a championship while he’s there. Because I think every player wants to go out on the mountaintop, especially a player of his caliber.
someone who has been renowned as the best player of all time, you want to have the storybook ending. You don’t want to go out like MJ did. You don’t want to go out like Kobe did. You want to go out on top. And I think the conversation then becomes, is the Cavs in that situation the best option for him? Right? And that brings me back to the New York Knicks situation and what they would have to give up for him and all these things. So Jimmy,
When we talk about being able to retain Donovan Mitchell, being able to retain Evan Mobley in this deal, does it matter who else is on that roster to you if you have that big three? Because we’ve talked about the era of the big three kind of dying. But if you only need one, two years left, could it be worth it?
Jimmy Watkins (19:26.19)
It would be a significant test of this theory that we’ve the general basketball intelligence has been floating recently, which is that the playoffs are now more about depth than they’ve ever been. think that’s true, but it’s as true because of the way the CBA has limited star stacking as it is true because depth is just naturally becoming more important. I do worry, I would worry.
Jimmy Watkins (19:58.738)
about LeBron in a long playoff run. We haven’t seen him in that type of situation in a while. mean, the conference finals run that the Lakers made a couple of years ago where they got swept. We can count that, I guess, if you want. He held up okay throughout that run. But that would be my concern, LeBron in a long playoff run. And then who are you filling in the gaps with? mean,
Whatever’s left of the veteran minimum market you have your pick. It’s much like when LeBron went to Miami. You might be able to get some guys that would otherwise not be signing veteran minimums. Although at this stage of the game, that’s a harder thing to do because a lot of guys have signed their deals by now. could try to, at this point, mean, if LeBron’s on your team, you’re shooting for a championship.
Maybe throw some picks out there and try to get some cheaper guys on the, that you like on the back end of other, you’d have to get creative. I mean, you were taught, I forget the players that you named would all, that would also be like Walker Kessler. Okay. I like that. You still do your, your two bakes thing. James Springer is a big question mark for me. Like the guys that would, you would, Cavs as much as they’d be talking LeBron, part of those negotiations would be, okay, what kind of other rotations play rotation players can we get in this big web of a trade?
because we do need to actually feel the team here. Particularly once we talk, we’re talking championship here. We’re not just talking the East. Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, and LeBron against the rest of what is the East right now. Yeah, I kind of don’t care who else is on the team. I think they’d make it through the East, again, assuming relative health. But in the finals, I think you’d need a few more pieces. You need a couple 3D guys. You need some playable depth.
some, some secondary ball handler types. I mean, if you can, if you can hang on to Alonzo in a deal like this, if you can hang on to guys like Sam Merrill, I mean, those are infinitely valuable pieces on a team, on a team like this where LeBron and Donovan can create so many shots for guys. so I do kind of care who’s on the team, but not enough to not do the trade.
Ethan Sands (22:18.783)
We talked a lot yesterday about the amount that Dan Gilbert is paying, obviously we’re going through the roster and how things might get reconstructed. I want to just go through the salaries of each of these key players for the 25-26 season. And Jimmy, before I looked at these numbers, I was like, yeah, these guys are millionaires. Dude, these prices are insane.
$394 million next year the same for Evan Mobley Darius Garland basically 39 and a half Deandre Hunter almost 23 and a half Jared Allen 20 million even Max Struz basically 16 million Lonzo Ball 10 million Sam Merrill around eight and a half Dean Wayne around six and a half Jaylin Tyson around three and a half Craig Porter jr around two million dollars right and this is still not including
the contract, the veteran minimum of Larry Nance Jr. This is not including the deal that is still yet to be made of the 14th roster player for this team. I just think it’s so interesting when you talk about what this team is capable of, what this team is already going to be able to do, even though we talked about the luxury tax hit that Dan Gilbert is going to have to pay and all these things. And I’m sorry for
the people who thought we were gonna get to all of their questions today, we kind of got into this LeBron James black hole as we do. And I wanted to just touch on the rotation in the roster that the cows have currently, because you can’t go away from what you already have if you don’t know what you have. And obviously the grass isn’t always greener. So just to get back to Matt’s original question about
predicting the starting five and rotation as of now for the Cleveland Cavaliers, I think we can do that when we also keep in mind what the Cavs are going to be missing to start the season, right? We have to obviously point out Darius Garland is still going to be rehabbing come training camp time. He will be doing some form of basketball activity, which means he could be doing.
treadmill work, could be doing agility work, he could be doing anything, but turf toe surgery, which is basically what he got for his left big toe that he injured at the end of the regular season and re aggravated in game two of the Eastern Conference first round against Miami is going to hinder him until he is fully recovered, especially with how he plays game and all these things. That’s part of the reason that the Cavs went and got Lonzo ball because they know
that they needed a facilitator or ball handler, somebody to keep Donovan Mitchell off the ball as well. So if I had to start with my first starting lineup when it comes to this season, Lonzo Ball is my starting point guard. Obviously, it’s going to be a training camp, training camp bout, which I’m excited, which I’m excited to hear about between Lonzo, who’s experienced but hasn’t had a lot of experience in the NBA just because of his injury history.
Craig Porter Jr., who is in his third season in the NBA and trying to battle out to figure out where he’s going to be. Tyrese Proctor, a player that they drafted number 49 overall in a rare situation where you have the opportunity to fight for rotation minutes in your first year as a second rounder. And then Jalen Tyson, someone who was the main ball handler at Cal, having the opportunity to add into his arsenal of ball handling facilitation, all of those things.
Even though Jalen Tyson is more being used as a wing or a forward, rather than being used as a guard in the lineup that the Cavs would like to have him in with his 6 foot 6 size and his defensive acumen that continues to grow. So, if we had to go into the depth chart for the Cavs to start the season, here’s my starting five. Lonzo Ball at the 1, Donovan Mitchell at the 2,
Max Struffs at the three, Evan Mobley at the four, Jared Allen at the five. I think that’s what is going to happen. Do I think DeAndre Hunter should start in this scenario? I’m going to say no, just because of what we’ve talked about with Chris, what we talked about on this podcast about the need for the movement and the spacing. And I also think the second unit that I talked about on yesterday’s podcast is going to be extremely helpful when it comes to this roster. When you talk about a potential second unit,
Ethan Sands (27:03.343)
of Lonzo still at, or excuse me, Donovan at the one, Sam Merrill at the two, Lonzo Ball switching to the three and guarding the best perimeter player for the opposing team, Deandre Hunter at the four and Evan Mobley at the five, keeping the pairing of Donovan and Evan. That line up to me sounds nasty. You have the movement of Sam Merrill, have the defense of Donovan and Lonzo Donovan with even though being 6-3, having the wingspan, being beefy and strong enough.
to bang down low and being able to hang on the perimeter as well. And then obviously Evan Mobley, your defensive player of the year, managing the paint with six foot eight Deandre Hunter as his wing helper. Jimmy, tell me if I’m off or tell me if you think that’s a good start or how you would adjust those lineups.
Jimmy Watkins (27:53.23)
So I’m interested in a couple things. I think you mostly have the right idea. but the backup, the backup point guard battle, that’s where Tyrese Proctor and Craig Porter Jr. are going to be in direct competition, for the backup point guard minutes. I think that’s fascinating, particularly because, I mean, the Cavs, I want to say, I want to be careful about this because I feel like 60 % of second round picks drafted before like the bottom five.
